The Hobbit Kingdoms Of Middle Earth Forum

17.08.2019

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The Hobbit Kingdoms Of Middle Earth Forum Games
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The Hobbit Kingdoms Of Middle Earth Forum Games

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The Hobbit Kingdoms Of Middle Earth Forum 2017

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The Hobbit Middle Earth Map

The hobbit kingdoms of middle earth forum games

Hi all! What would you say are the 5 most powerful kingdoms for Middle Earth in all of it's history?

I would say:

1) Numenor

2) Gondolin

3) Khazad Dum

4) Gondor

5) Lindon

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1) Valinor
2) Numenor
3) Gondolin
4) Gondor at it's hight
5) Khazad-dum
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1. Valinor.
2. Angbad.
3. Numenor at its height.
4. Mordor at its height.
5. Doriath.

(I had a lot of trouble deciding which should be placed higher, Numenor
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MrHobit1234 wrote:1) Valinor
2) Numenor
3) Gondolin
4) Gondor at it's hight
5) Khazad-dum
(Let the arguments begin) I believe that Angbad could conquer everything on your and Dain's list (minus Valinor) all by itself.
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1. Dunkland, because GET DUNKED ON!!!
2-5 whatever, they dont stand a chance against Dunkland
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1) Angbad
2) Gondolian
3) Numenor
4) Mordor at height
5) Lindon
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Well.. can we do racial ones like best man factions
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MrHobit1234 wrote:Yah or Uptumno should be up there.
Utumno didn't last long.
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By the way, I'm not countaing Valinor as it wasn't on the continent of Middle Earth.
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LordDainTheAwsome wrote:By the way, I'm not countaing Valinor as it wasn't on the continent of Middle Earth.
Yes, but by your definition (which is the definition of Tolkien himself), Númenor is not a part of Middle-earth. For example, the full title of Unfinished Tales is Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth.
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Well, Numendor still had stuff to do with Middle Earth, so you could still count it.
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1) Khazad-dum
2) Erebor
3) Iron hills
4) Nogrod&Belegost
5) Grey Mountains

xD
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Catfishperson wrote:
MrHobit1234 wrote:1) Valinor
2) Numenor
3) Gondolin
4) Gondor at it's hight
5) Khazad-dum
(Let the arguments begin) I believe that Angbad could conquer everything on your and Dain's list (minus Valinor) all by itself.
How can angband get to númenor? It is said that orcs hate the sea..
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Oh yeah.. dragons, balrogs, and fell beast.
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EliSuperHero wrote:
Catfishperson wrote:
MrHobit1234 wrote:1) Valinor
2) Numenor
3) Gondolin
4) Gondor at it's hight
5) Khazad-dum
(Let the arguments begin) I believe that Angbad could conquer everything on your and Dain's list (minus Valinor) all by itself.
How can angband get to númenor? It is said that orcs hate the sea..
If you were to put these on an even playing field I believe if what he means.
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Who would actully win? Like, the Orcs would have been smashed, but what about the Dragons and Balrogs?
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1. Angband
2. Gondor & the reunited kingdom (so Gondor and arnor)
3. Just definitely the Shire, like come on, who would fight against hobbits?
4. Gondolin
5. Númenor
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LordDainTheAwsome wrote:Well, Numendor still had stuff to do with Middle Earth, so you could still count it.
Well Valinor had stuff to do with Middle Earth so technicly by that logic it still counts. Also anything on Beleriand doesn't or Harad or Rhun count.
My new and improved list
1) Valinor
2) Angbad
3) The Noldor in exile at the begining of the first age
4) Numenor
5) Mordor
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Valinor doesn't count because it's to overpowered.. When i'm talking about Middle Earth, I mean in Endor.
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Middle Earth is a continent by it self and like that Lindon doesn't count because it is on Beleriand so, hear is my Middle Earth list!
1) Mordor
2)The Reunited Kingdom
3) Gondor
4) Khazad-dum
5) Hollin
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1) Valinor/Ainur
2)Utumno
3)Númenor
4)Gondolin
5)Gondor (At peak)
6)Mordor (At Peak)
7)LIndon
8Lothlorien
9)Eregion (at peak)
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Numenor in terms of mortal people, but otherwise Valinor.
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Good gosh! Only stuff in Endor counts! Stuff from Aman doesn't count!
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In Middle-Earth itself:
-Angband at its height
-Numenor at its height
-Mordor at its height
-Gondolin at its height
-Lindon at its height
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 14:55, September 25, 2016 (UTC)
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I think its agreed Angbad, and Numenor were the strongest, but besides them:
1: Reunited Kingdom
2: Mordor at its Height
3: lindon at its height
4: The Ironhills at its Height
5: Umbar at its Height
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All Times:
1.Morgoths Empire2.Numenor3.Reunited Kingdom4.Mordor (Third age)5.Khazad-Dum6.Lindon7.Tauredain Empire (if they count)8.Gondolin9.House of Feanor10.Gondor
First Age:1.Angband2.Gondolin3.Doriath4.Belegost5.Nogrod
Second Age:1.Black Numenoreans2.Mordor3.Faithful Numenorians4.Khazad dum5.Eregion
Third Age:
1.Mordor2.Gondor3.Arnor4.Durins Folk5.Harad (including Umbar)
Eastern ME:
1.Golden Khaganate2.Red Mountains3.Avari
Southern ME
1.Tauredain2.Umbar3.Near Harad
Fourth Age:1.Reunited Kingdom2.Near Harad3.Khazad dum
Fith Age (just kidding of curse :P)
1.USA2.China3.European Union
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TheodenOfRohan wrote:I really wish Rohan was more powerful.
It was powerful, in its own way 😉
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Sadly, I see no one thinks that Gondor at its height was strong.Gondor T.A.1050, the age of Ship-kings
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A couple things I would like to clear up:
1. Gondolin wasn't actually that powerful. It was just a singal city. It's main advantage was that it was hidden, but once Morgoth learned its location, he sacked it pretty easily.
2. Utumno did actually survive a pretty long time, and it wouldn't have fell so easily I think had it not been the host of Valinor assaulting it. However, I counted it and Angbad as the same in my list.
3. Gondor, (even when combined with Arnor) was never more powerful then Mordor at its height.
4. If the elven exiles of the first age can be considered a singal, united kingdom, they would place much higher on my list.
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I bet if Tolkien saw half the things we said on LotR online sites as a whole, he'd facepalm so hard.
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Catfishperson wrote:
A couple things I would like to clear up:
1. Gondolin wasn't actually that powerful. It was just a singal city. It's main advantage was that it was hidden, but once Morgoth learned its location, he sacked it pretty easily.
2. Utumno did actually survive a pretty long time, and it wouldn't have fell so easily I think had it not been the host of Valinor assaulting it. However, I counted it and Angbad as the same in my list.
3. Gondor, (even when combined with Arnor) was never more powerful then Mordor at its height.
4. If the elven exiles of the first age can be considered a singal, united kingdom, they would place much higher on my list.
Keep in mind that Morgoth was a very mighty foe, and he was next to impossible to kill.
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Catfishperson wrote:A couple things I would like to clear up:
1. Gondolin wasn't actually that powerful. It was just a singal city. It's main advantage was that it was hidden, but once Morgoth learned its location, he sacked it pretty easily.
2. Utumno did actually survive a pretty long time, and it wouldn't have fell so easily I think had it not been the host of Valinor assaulting it. However, I counted it and Angbad as the same in my list.
3. Gondor, (even when combined with Arnor) was never more powerful then Mordor at its height.
4. If the elven exiles of the first age can be considered a singal, united kingdom, they would place much higher on my list.
How about Gondor at the age of Ship-kings meets Mordor at its height?
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Wargaz cc wrote:
Catfishperson wrote:A couple things I would like to clear up:
1. Gondolin wasn't actually that powerful. It was just a singal city. It's main advantage was that it was hidden, but once Morgoth learned its location, he sacked it pretty easily.
2. Utumno did actually survive a pretty long time, and it wouldn't have fell so easily I think had it not been the host of Valinor assaulting it. However, I counted it and Angbad as the same in my list.
3. Gondor, (even when combined with Arnor) was never more powerful then Mordor at its height.
4. If the elven exiles of the first age can be considered a singal, united kingdom, they would place much higher on my list.
How about Gondor at the age of Ship-kings meet Mordor at its height?
Very close, but Mordor would probably win if Gondor was alone.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 19:13, September 25, 2016 (UTC)
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Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:
Wargaz cc wrote:
Catfishperson wrote:A couple things I would like to clear up:
1. Gondolin wasn't actually that powerful. It was just a singal city. It's main advantage was that it was hidden, but once Morgoth learned its location, he sacked it pretty easily.
2. Utumno did actually survive a pretty long time, and it wouldn't have fell so easily I think had it not been the host of Valinor assaulting it. However, I counted it and Angbad as the same in my list.
3. Gondor, (even when combined with Arnor) was never more powerful then Mordor at its height.
4. If the elven exiles of the first age can be considered a singal, united kingdom, they would place much higher on my list.
How about Gondor at the age of Ship-kings meet Mordor at its height?
Very close, but Mordor would probably win if Gondor was alone.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 19:13, September 25, 2016 (UTC)
Gondor is never alone, either by design or chance.
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I've always wondered what would have happened if the exiles never did the kinslaying and instead asked the Teleri to build them new ships. If they would have sailed across the sea peacefully together with some of the Telerin they would have gained support from Doriath.. A united Beleriand under the kings and princes of the Eldalië would have been a vast power. Even greater in an alliance with the dwarves of the blue mountain and possibly khazad dum if it could have been reached through the dense woods of eriador at the time.
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If that happend Angbad would have been crushed a 1,000 times over and the Battle of the Unnumbered tears would have never have happend, nor would Beleriand have sunk, nor would Gondor had existed but sadly Numenor would not exist either.
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TheodenOfRohan wrote:
Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:
Wargaz cc wrote:
Catfishperson wrote:A couple things I would like to clear up:
1. Gondolin wasn't actually that powerful. It was just a singal city. It's main advantage was that it was hidden, but once Morgoth learned its location, he sacked it pretty easily.
2. Utumno did actually survive a pretty long time, and it wouldn't have fell so easily I think had it not been the host of Valinor assaulting it. However, I counted it and Angbad as the same in my list.
3. Gondor, (even when combined with Arnor) was never more powerful then Mordor at its height.
4. If the elven exiles of the first age can be considered a singal, united kingdom, they would place much higher on my list.
How about Gondor at the age of Ship-kings meet Mordor at its height?
Very close, but Mordor would probably win if Gondor was alone.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 19:13, September 25, 2016 (UTC)
Gondor is never alone, either by design or chance.
Except it's alone for this, period. :-P
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 20:19, September 26, 2016 (UTC)
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All Time
1. Angband (higher than Utumno because of later Dragons)
2. Utumno (right before Siege)
3. Khazad-Dûm (second age)
4. Nûmenor (at time of Pharazôn)
5. Gondor at its height during the Ship Kings
First Age
1. Angband
2. Khazad-Dûm
3. Gondolin
4. Doriath (with Melian's protection)
5. Blue Dwarves
Second Age
1. Khazad-Dûm (height before Eregion war)
2. Númenor (including Arnor/Gondor later)
3. Mordor
4. Eregion
5. Lindon
Third Age
1. Gondor at height during Ship-Kings
2. Mordor during War of the Ring
3. Angmar (right after Fall of Arnor)
4. Arnor (around 900's Third Age)
5. Khazad-Dûm (right after Last Alliance)
Edit: Removed Valinor from all lists, thanks Grievious. I completely overlooked that..
One other thing, I believe that Mordor and all its allies during the War of the Ring would have defeated Gondor during the Ship-King era in a hypothetical battle. However, I do not believe Mordor without its allies would have been able to destroy Gondor in this era.
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Jimmy Dude 21 wrote:All Time
1. Valinor
2. Angband (higher than Utumno because of later Dragons)
3. Utumno (right before Siege)
4. Khazad-Dûm (second age)
5. Nûmenor (at time of Pharazôn)
First Age
1. Valinor
2. Angband
3. Khazad-Dûm
4. Gondolin
5. Doriath (with Melian's protection)
Second Age
1. Khazad-Dûm (height before Eregion war)
2. Númenor (including Arnor/Gondor later)
3. Mordor
4. Eregion
5. Lindon
Third Age
1. Gondor at height during Ship-Kings
2. Mordor during War of the Ring
3. Angmar (right after Fall of Arnor)
4. Arnor (around 900's Third Age)
5. Khazad-Dûm (right after Last Alliance)
For the third time, Valinor =/= Middle-Earth. It's a separate continent.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 23:32, September 26, 2016 (UTC)
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Btw, how powerful was the kingdom of Rhovanion O.o
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My top 10, in no particular order at any time:
- Angband
- Doriath
- Gondor
- Mordor
- Khazad-dûm
- Lórien
- Lindon
- Númenor
- Utumno
- The Reunited Kingdom
Aranwë Tûrammarth^{Utúlie'n aurë!}
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Legoarmy505 wrote:Btw, how powerful was the kingdom of Rhovanion O.o
Meh.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 00:49, September 27, 2016 (UTC)
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Legoarmy505 wrote:
Btw, how powerful was the kingdom of Rhovanion O.o
Not that powerful. If you read the Appendices it says that they were divided into clans.
Aranwë Tûrammarth^{Utúlie'n aurë!}
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Key word, that, they weren't like, literal different nations, I really need to read the unfinished tales
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Yeah, different nations is different from clans. But not too far. Clans had things such as blood feuds that could look a lot like war.
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Some of the People of Rhovanion would occasionally side with the invading Balchoth, so they weren't that united.
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Well, the people wasn't so United but the nation would be, I see them more as Vikings now, still power ful
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They weren't really powerful at all.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 09:48, September 27, 2016 (UTC)
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Come on guys, the best faction of ME, if you count everything, is Saurons Empire at his heigh, i mean he controlled nearly the whole east and south, which was alot bigger than western ME
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Gorbag12 wrote:
Come on guys, the best faction of ME, if you count everything, is Saurons Empire at his heigh, i mean he controlled nearly the whole east and south, which was alot bigger than western ME
I have one thing to say, he couldn't even stop two HOBBITS from going into Mordor, andbesides that, you know that The Shire is the Best faction ever!
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Gorbag12 wrote:Come on guys, the best faction of ME, if you count everything, is Saurons Empire at his heigh, i mean he controlled nearly the whole east and south, which was alot bigger than western ME
However, Gondor at his height controlled nearly the whole east and south, too.
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Wargaz cc wrote:
Gorbag12 wrote:Come on guys, the best faction of ME, if you count everything, is Saurons Empire at his heigh, i mean he controlled nearly the whole east and south, which was alot bigger than western ME
However, Gondor at his height controlled nearly the whole east and south, too.
It had pretty much no opposition though.
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Ram6 I wrote:
Gorbag12 wrote:
Come on guys, the best faction of ME, if you count everything, is Saurons Empire at his heigh, i mean he controlled nearly the whole east and south, which was alot bigger than western ME
I have one thing to say, he couldn't even stop two HOBBITS from going into Mordor, andbesides that, you know that The Shire is the Best faction ever!
Well two hobbits can hide, but we would be able to stop an all good people, if he would have all hus troops
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Wargaz cc wrote:
Gorbag12 wrote:Come on guys, the best faction of ME, if you count everything, is Saurons Empire at his heigh, i mean he controlled nearly the whole east and south, which was alot bigger than western ME
However, Gondor at his height controlled nearly the whole east and south, too.
Only to Umbar and to the sea of rhun, but sauron controlled everything beyond. Also, instead of mordor, there were many rebells in this area
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Sauron was hiding whe the Ship Kings ruled Gondor, he didn't rule anything.
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That's because he had been effectively killed. He didn't have the strength yet to rebuild Mordor. Had Mordor been at the height of its power at the time Gondor would've had some severe difficulties.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 20:10, September 27, 2016 (UTC)
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Well I say it could go either way if they went to battle.
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Nah. Gondor would've been ground to fine powder at the end of the Second Age were it not for the High Elves and Arnor. With Arnor fighting Angmar and the High Elves severely diminished, Gondor at the age of the Ship-kings would have turned to ash before the pure strength of Mordor at the time of the Fall of Eregion. Even in diminished strength during the War of the Ring victory would've been certain for Mordor had the Ring not been destroyed. At the Fall of Eregion Mordor was far stronger than it was during the WotR.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 20:55, September 27, 2016 (UTC)
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Imagine Gondor at the hight of it's power but at WOTR time, that would be fun to watch. But of course with Aragorn, Gandalf, and the Rohhirm, that would be an awesome war to watch.
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Imagine that with Mordor at the height of its power as well (which includes Sauron having the Ring.) It would be awesome to watch Minas Tirith crumble to ash, Dol Amroth collapse into the sea, and Sauron finally take rule of Middle-Earth.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 21:37, September 27, 2016 (UTC)
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Ok I wont post what I think are the top 5, because I truly don't know, but like really? Why isn't Erebor in most of these. I know it's in the movie but in the prologue of The Hobbit, Bilbo is talking about dale and says 'for this city lay before the greast kingdom in middle earth, erebor.' *Hint Hint* Greatest Kingdom *Hint Hint*
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Literally a single dragon took Erebor, and later a host of Easterlings brought it to its knees. I don't think it would stand much of a chance against Angbad or Numenor or any of the other major contenders mentioned here.
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And Bilbo hasn't seen many Kingdoms.
Aranwë Tûrammarth^{Utúlie'n aurë!}
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Catfishperson wrote:
Literally a single dragon took Erebor, and later a host of Easterlings brought it to its knees. I don't think it would stand much of a chance against Angbad or Numenor or any of the other major contenders mentioned here.
The first time that was the largest Dragon of the Third Age, and the second time was because the Dwarves charged out.
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Catfishperson wrote:
Literally a single dragon took Erebor, and later a host of Easterlings brought it to its knees. I don't think it would stand much of a chance against Angbad or Numenor or any of the other major contenders mentioned here.
First off, Its a Dragon, only a black arrow can kill it and no one really makes that. So if Smaug chose to attack anyone he could prob rule anything he wanted, just Erebor attracted him because of all its gold. And Secondly, forgive me if Im wrong, but I dont think the Easterlings actually beat the dwarves. They dwarves still won the battle. Along with LordDain, The dwarves also chose to charge out. If they chose to they could of just stayed in Erebor and no one could penitrate it. But Dwarves being who they are never flee from a fight so they left protection to fight.
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He said the greatest dwarven kingdom if I remember correctly.
At any rate, no dwarven realm would be no match for the full force of either Angband or Mordor at their height.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 23:36, September 27, 2016 (UTC)
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Also, LDTA, Smaug was a Third-age Dragon, and Erebor was a Third-age Kingdom(it existed before, but wasn't really 'a thing'). Smaug was very, very far from the most powerful dragon of the First Age.
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I know, some of those Dragons would have eaten Smaug for breakfast :P
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LordDainTheAwsome wrote:Except maybe Khazad-Dum, as they had Mithril.
If Sauron had put all he had to it, Khazad-dûm would have fallen before him.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 23:56, September 27, 2016 (UTC)
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Yeah. And also, mithril was rare. Very few soldiers would be equipped with it. For those who were? Hard though it may be, it doesn't work too well on crushing, blunt weapons. The spear thrown by an orc at Frodo had a big impact on him. Imagine getting hit by a troll swinging a hammer. Even if the armour is fully fine, you're kind of ruined.
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On a 1 on 1 matchup, Khazad-Dûm would likely have many victories against Mordor before its withdrawal and eventual stalemate. This is mostly due to the fact that Sauron could mass-produce his Orcs and Uruks while the dwarves reproduced extremely slowly. Although they would have superior weaponry, Mordor would eventually wear the Dwarves down. And in essence, this is what happened in the lore. Khazad-Dûm slowly began to take casualties; first in the fall of Eregion and second in the War of the Last Alliance. By the time of the fall of Arnor, Khazad-Dûm had failed to reproduce so much that it was practically deserted and a single Balrog was enough to destroy it.
I think that Khazad-Dûm and Mordor would enter an essential Stalemate because the creatures of Mordor would be unable to breach the Bridge of Khazad-Dûm. Even if Sauron came himself with the Ring, the dwarves would most likely be able to choke his forces at the Bridge and knock him off somehow.
Needless to say Erebor and most other Third-Age realms wouldn't be much of a match for Mordor's forces. Erebor had an extremely small population compared to Khazad-Dûm. It would be essentially a battle between 10,000 dwarves and hundreds of thousands of Mordor's troops.
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For Khazad-dûm.
Sauron could destroy the dwarves by luring them out of Moria. He just has to catch Durin out on a walk and kill him to start the war, and then the dwarves will come to him and get annihilated. Then he can storm Khazad-dûm easily.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 00:17, September 28, 2016 (UTC)
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Of course on a one-on-one matchup. The Orcs' main advantage, as shown in the books, usually is numbers. And also, there's West Gate, not just East Gate. And Sauron has his own miners. If that bridge is impassable, why enter there? Dig your own way in, after collapsing the bridge to make sure that way is unusable for them as a retreat/harrying-gate.
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DwarvishIron wrote:
Catfishperson wrote:
Literally a single dragon took Erebor, and later a host of Easterlings brought it to its knees. I don't think it would stand much of a chance against Angbad or Numenor or any of the other major contenders mentioned here.
First off, Its a Dragon, only a black arrow can kill it and no one really makes that. So if Smaug chose to attack anyone he could prob rule anything he wanted, just Erebor attracted him because of all its gold. And Secondly, forgive me if Im wrong, but I dont think the Easterlings actually beat the dwarves. They dwarves still won the battle. Along with LordDain, The dwarves also chose to charge out. If they chose to they could of just stayed in Erebor and no one could penitrate it. But Dwarves being who they are never flee from a fight so they left protection to fight.
Anything can kill a dragon, not just a black arrow, of which there was only one, anyway.
Although the the dwarves initially attempted to defend Dale, they were completely overrun, and Dale was burnt to the ground. The dwarves and surviving men of Dale then retreated inside the mountain, where they were forced to hide and hope for rescue. Luckily, they survived long enough for Sauron's defeat in the south. Once the Easterlings heard of this, they scattered.
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Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:
He said the greatest dwarven kingdom if I remember correctly.
At any rate, no dwarven realm would be no match for the full force of either Angband or Mordor at their height.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 23:36, September 27, 2016 (UTC)
Lol, Everyone says 'at the full height.' which may be true but at some point someone had to of defeated them, the elves defeated angmar, and as I'm pretty sure a single man defeated Sauron. So Erebor could withstand attacks from orcs. And Also Someone said that Orcs are big in numbers, so are dwarves but the thing is they also have lots of allys, and they have Dale too. So Ya.
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It is true, most kingdoms were defeated at some point or another, but that dosen't really change anything. Also, Grievous was talking about 'Angband,' not 'Angmar,' completely different. I don't believe Sauron was ever defeated by a single man, Isiuldur killed him once (He came back), but that was with the help of an army, and at the expense of Elendil and Gil Galad. Erebor could withstand the attacks of some orcs, but certainly not the full might of Mordor or Angband. Dwarves were actually one of the least populous races, and although the dwarves did have allies, we are examining individual kingdoms. Dale didn't last very long in TWotR anyways.
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Exactly, and after that, it was the ring's destruction that ended Sauron once and for all.
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DwarvishIron wrote:
Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:
He said the greatest dwarven kingdom if I remember correctly.
At any rate, no dwarven realm would be no match for the full force of either Angband or Mordor at their height.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 23:36, September 27, 2016 (UTC)
Lol, Everyone says 'at the full height.' which may be true but at some point someone had to of defeated them, the elves defeated angmar, and as I'm pretty sure a single man defeated Sauron. So Erebor could withstand attacks from orcs. And Also Someone said that Orcs are big in numbers, so are dwarves but the thing is they also have lots of allys, and they have Dale too. So Ya.
Also, Dwarves may have lots. And their allies might have lots. And so might Dale. But they don't have the millions of troops, all of them fully disposable, that Mordor has. Mordor also has the Easterlings and Harad.
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DwarvishIron wrote:
Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:
He said the greatest dwarven kingdom if I remember correctly.
At any rate, no dwarven realm would be no match for the full force of either Angband or Mordor at their height.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 23:36, September 27, 2016 (UTC)
Lol, Everyone says 'at the full height.' which may be true but at some point someone had to of defeated them, the elves defeated angmar, and as I'm pretty sure a single man defeated Sauron. So Erebor could withstand attacks from orcs. And Also Someone said that Orcs are big in numbers, so are dwarves but the thing is they also have lots of allys, and they have Dale too. So Ya.
All of this is talking without allies. Mordor was only defeated and pushed back at its height by the combined strength of the Elves and Numenor. Angband was only defeated at its height by deus ex machina.
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Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 09:38, September 28, 2016 (UTC)
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Well Sauron used his allies in the War of the Last Alliance also the Free Peoples only had 225,000 soldiers agianst the millions of Easterlings, Haradhrim, trolls, spiders, orcs, Uruks, Gondor at it's hight had to have at least a million soldiers. I say that Gondor at it's hight could at least hold it's ground agianst Mordor alone at it's hight.
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MrHobit1234 wrote:
Well Sauron used his allies in the War of the Last Alliance also the Free Peoples only had 225,000 soldiers agianst the millions of Easterlings, Haradhrim, trolls, spiders, orcs, Uruks, Gondor at it's hight had to have at least a million soldiers. I say that Gondor at it's hight could at least hold it's ground agianst Mordor alone at it's hight.
Millions of easterlings? And only the tribal easterlings were swarm units really. The imperial ones fought with great valor.
Using lotr mod lore it goes like this (semi canon lore not canon)
1. Numenor (at their height)
2.Golden Khaganate (semi canon lore of the empires of the east)
3. Reunited Kingdoms
4 Dwarves of Khazad Dum (at their height)
5. Kingdom of Arnor (at their height)
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Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:
Imagine that with Mordor at the height of its power as well (which includes Sauron having the Ring.) It would be awesome to watch Minas Tirith crumble to ash, Dol Amroth collapse into the sea, and Sauron finally take rule of Middle-Earth.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 21:37, September 27, 2016 (UTC)no.
No. It would be awesome for the Golden Khaganate to take over the world.
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Loke Khan Torgou of Rhun wrote:
MrHobit1234 wrote:
Well Sauron used his allies in the War of the Last Alliance also the Free Peoples only had 225,000 soldiers agianst the millions of Easterlings, Haradhrim, trolls, spiders, orcs, Uruks, Gondor at it's hight had to have at least a million soldiers. I say that Gondor at it's hight could at least hold it's ground agianst Mordor alone at it's hight.
Millions of easterlings? And only the tribal easterlings were swarm units really. The imperial ones fought with great valor.
Using lotr mod lore it goes like this (semi canon lore not canon)
1. Numenor (at their height)
2.Golden Khaganate (semi canon lore of the empires of the east)
3. Reunited Kingdoms
4 Dwarves of Khazad Dum (at their height)
5. Kingdom of Arnor (at their height)
Of whixh Gondor destroyed easily during the Ship Kings and Earnur and this battle is between Mordor and Gondor alone. Gondor at it's hight was far more powerful than the Golden Khanagate.
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Yes, but at the end of the Third Age the Khangante would have beaten Gondor if it had it's full might.
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Gondor at it's hight was far more powerful than any of Saurons allies at their hight.
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MrHobit1234 wrote:
Loke Khan Torgou of Rhun wrote:
MrHobit1234 wrote:
Well Sauron used his allies in the War of the Last Alliance also the Free Peoples only had 225,000 soldiers agianst the millions of Easterlings, Haradhrim, trolls, spiders, orcs, Uruks, Gondor at it's hight had to have at least a million soldiers. I say that Gondor at it's hight could at least hold it's ground agianst Mordor alone at it's hight.
Millions of easterlings? And only the tribal easterlings were swarm units really. The imperial ones fought with great valor.
Using lotr mod lore it goes like this (semi canon lore not canon)
1. Numenor (at their height)
2.Golden Khaganate (semi canon lore of the empires of the east)
3. Reunited Kingdoms
4 Dwarves of Khazad Dum (at their height)
5. Kingdom of Arnor (at their height)
Of whixh Gondor destroyed easily during the Ship Kings and Earnur and this battle is between Mordor and Gondor alone. Gondor at it's hight was far more powerful than the Golden Khanagate.

You are thinking about the balchoth or the wainriders, not the golden khaganate.
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Just because gondor is mainstream doesn't mean it has to be OP
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MrHobit1234 wrote:Well Sauron used his allies in the War of the Last Alliance also the Free Peoples only had 225,000 soldiers agianst the millions of Easterlings, Haradhrim, trolls, spiders, orcs, Uruks, Gondor at it's hight had to have at least a million soldiers. I say that Gondor at it's hight could at least hold it's ground agianst Mordor alone at it's hight.
Sauron's allies didn't fight in the War of the Elves and Sauron, which was fought at Sauron's height. Sauron could have destroyed all resistance in Middle-Earth had Numenor not aided the Elves.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 19:44, September 28, 2016 (UTC)
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I thought you meant the War of the Last Alliance. :D
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Loke Khan Torgou of Rhun wrote:Just because gondor is mainstream doesn't mean it has to be OP
Just because Tolkien said it was the greatest kingdom of men, oh wait it does mean that they are OP!
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The greatest kingdom of men does not mean greatest kingdom. Mordor was not a kingdom of men. Lindon was not a kingdom of men. Angband was not a kingdom of men. Utumno wasn't. Erebor wasn't. Lorien wasn't. Gondolin wasn't. Valinor wasn't. Eregion wasn't. The Noldor weren't. Many great, powerful things weren't men.
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Recneps wrote:The greatest kingdom of men does not mean greatest kingdom. Mordor was not a kingdom of men. Lindon was not a kingdom of men. Angband was not a kingdom of men. Utumno wasn't. Erebor wasn't. Lorien wasn't. Gondolin wasn't. Valinor wasn't. Eregion wasn't. The Noldor weren't. Many great, powerful things weren't men.
*Most
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 21:02, September 28, 2016 (UTC)
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Loke Khan Torgou of Rhun wrote:greatest KINGDOM not EMPIRE
I do not recall Tolkien describing the Easterlings as an empire.
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Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:
Recneps wrote:The greatest kingdom of men does not mean greatest kingdom. Mordor was not a kingdom of men. Lindon was not a kingdom of men. Angband was not a kingdom of men. Utumno wasn't. Erebor wasn't. Lorien wasn't. Gondolin wasn't. Valinor wasn't. Eregion wasn't. The Noldor weren't. Many great, powerful things weren't men.
*Most
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 21:02, September 28, 2016 (UTC)
However, what Tolkien tried to tell us is that many great, powerful things are diminished, and the ordinary and humble folk take over the world. Even the most humble folk overthrew the most great, powerful kingdom. The time comes of the Dominion of Men.
It's kind of like that dinosaurs are certainly greater and more powerful that Men, but there would be no place for us if they still exist on earth like Jurassic period.
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(Actually, man is considerably more power then the dinosaurs were, but lets not get into that.)
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Catfishperson wrote:
(Actually, man is considerably more power then the dinosaurs were, but lets not get into that.)
It is semi canon lore because rhun has like no lore on it. There is one mention of the easterlings being allowed to live in there great empire after the War of the Ring that is canon though.
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One last comment. Man IS, but they wouldn't have reached that if they hadn't fallen extinct. The human race likely would never have existed if that were the case.
On the subject. Wargaz, the Age of Men happened, except Gondor was far from the most powerful of Mannish Kingdoms. It had fallen greatly in strength. Let's take what would've happened, based on the forces given, if the Haradrim(I'm counting Umbar) had attacked Gondor by themselves, without Gondor having allies. For one thing, the naval forces would have actually arrived, not been hijacked by Rangers and Spirits. For another, those massive Mumakil would be fighting against quite fewer enemies, especially cavalry. And also, you may be thinking that they never would've gotten a good attack on the Pelennor, because of Rammas Echor, Osgiliath, etc. They would've. They have tons of ships, and could fairly easily land an army on an uninhabited section of the Gondorian coastline. Possibly Andrast. Then they might have trouble getting that army up to Rammas Echor and the Pelennor undetected, but they already have an army behind the enemy's main defenses. If they reach the Pelennor, then Rammas Echor would honestly not be too hard to take. It's a great, big wall. But long. Unless the Gondorians had forewarning, then it should be fairly easy for the Haradrim to take a section and then enter the Pelennor through that. You can't defend a wall as long as the Echor with nearly the same strength as you can with a city wall. Once they're in the Pelennor. Well, most of the Gondorians forces would be coming from South of the Pelennor. If the Gondorians had forewarning, they'd have been racing to reach the Pelennor. Any that were found by the Haradrim could easily be defeated, as the Haradrim have a complete army. Any that weren't? Well, they'd either beat it to the Pelennor, and be absorbed into the defense there, or they'd come up after the Haradrim, and be a flanking force, but weary from marching and isolated from the bulk of the army in both planning and supplies. If the defenders in Minas Tirith managed to get a messenger out, then the levies could be effective, as they could be intercepted by the messenger and rally out of sight from the Haradrim. When enough of them arrived, they'd be able to launch a successful flanking attack. However, if the Haradrim had left defenders on Rammas Echor, such a tactic would likely fail, as the Haradrim would have forewarning of any gathering of men. If they managed to do a successful flanking before the Haradrim had taken the city, they'd probably win. If not? Well, they'd be slaughtered at the city's walls. And as to the Haradrim taking the city. Well, the Gondorians wouldn't have their full forces pulled into the city. They'd also have pretty much no cavalry for harrying. It really depends on any siege equipment the Haradrim have, and the true size of a Mumak. If the Mumak are the same size as, or slightly larger than, modern elephants, then they could be all but ignored in a siege such as this. If they were the size they've been portrayed as in the movies, then they'd be very deadly.
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Recneps wrote:One last comment. Man IS, but they wouldn't have reached that if they hadn't fallen extinct. The human race likely would never have existed if that were the case.
On the subject. Wargaz, the Age of Men happened, except Gondor was far from the most powerful of Mannish Kingdoms. It had fallen greatly in strength. Let's take what would've happened, based on the forces given, if the Haradrim(I'm counting Umbar) had attacked Gondor by themselves, without Gondor having allies. For one thing, the naval forces would have actually arrived, not been hijacked by Rangers and Spirits. For another, those massive Mumakil would be fighting against quite fewer enemies, especially cavalry. And also, you may be thinking that they never would've gotten a good attack on the Pelennor, because of Rammas Echor, Osgiliath, etc. They would've. They have tons of ships, and could fairly easily land an army on an uninhabited section of the Gondorian coastline. Possibly Andrast. Then they might have trouble getting that army up to Rammas Echor and the Pelennor undetected, but they already have an army behind the enemy's main defenses. If they reach the Pelennor, then Rammas Echor would honestly not be too hard to take. It's a great, big wall. But long. Unless the Gondorians had forewarning, then it should be fairly easy for the Haradrim to take a section and then enter the Pelennor through that. You can't defend a wall as long as the Echor with nearly the same strength as you can with a city wall. Once they're in the Pelennor. Well, most of the Gondorians forces would be coming from South of the Pelennor. If the Gondorians had forewarning, they'd have been racing to reach the Pelennor. Any that were found by the Haradrim could easily be defeated, as the Haradrim have a complete army. Any that weren't? Well, they'd either beat it to the Pelennor, and be absorbed into the defense there, or they'd come up after the Haradrim, and be a flanking force, but weary from marching and isolated from the bulk of the army in both planning and supplies. If the defenders in Minas Tirith managed to get a messenger out, then the levies could be effective, as they could be intercepted by the messenger and rally out of sight from the Haradrim. When enough of them arrived, they'd be able to launch a successful flanking attack. However, if the Haradrim had left defenders on Rammas Echor, such a tactic would likely fail, as the Haradrim would have forewarning of any gathering of men. If they managed to do a successful flanking before the Haradrim had taken the city, they'd probably win. If not? Well, they'd be slaughtered at the city's walls. And as to the Haradrim taking the city. Well, the Gondorians wouldn't have their full forces pulled into the city. They'd also have pretty much no cavalry for harrying. It really depends on any siege equipment the Haradrim have, and the true size of a Mumak. If the Mumak are the same size as, or slightly larger than, modern elephants, then they could be all but ignored in a siege such as this. If they were the size they've been portrayed as in the movies, then they'd be very deadly.
In fact, according the the Red Book, the Mumak used in TWoTR were indeed a good 40 or fifty feet tall.
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Recneps wrote:One last comment. Man IS, but they wouldn't have reached that if they hadn't fallen extinct. The human race likely would never have existed if that were the case.

On the subject. Wargaz, the Age of Men happened, except Gondor was far from the most powerful of Mannish Kingdoms. It had fallen greatly in strength. Let's take what would've happened, based on the forces given, if the Haradrim(I'm counting Umbar) had attacked Gondor by themselves, without Gondor having allies. For one thing, the naval forces would have actually arrived, not been hijacked by Rangers and Spirits. For another, those massive Mumakil would be fighting against quite fewer enemies, especially cavalry. And also, you may be thinking that they never would've gotten a good attack on the Pelennor, because of Rammas Echor, Osgiliath, etc. They would've. They have tons of ships, and could fairly easily land an army on an uninhabited section of the Gondorian coastline. Possibly Andrast. Then they might have trouble getting that army up to Rammas Echor and the Pelennor undetected, but they already have an army behind the enemy's main defenses. If they reach the Pelennor, then Rammas Echor would honestly not be too hard to take. It's a great, big wall. But long. Unless the Gondorians had forewarning, then it should be fairly easy for the Haradrim to take a section and then enter the Pelennor through that. You can't defend a wall as long as the Echor with nearly the same strength as you can with a city wall. Once they're in the Pelennor. Well, most of the Gondorians forces would be coming from South of the Pelennor. If the Gondorians had forewarning, they'd have been racing to reach the Pelennor. Any that were found by the Haradrim could easily be defeated, as the Haradrim have a complete army. Any that weren't? Well, they'd either beat it to the Pelennor, and be absorbed into the defense there, or they'd come up after the Haradrim, and be a flanking force, but weary from marching and isolated from the bulk of the army in both planning and supplies. If the defenders in Minas Tirith managed to get a messenger out, then the levies could be effective, as they could be intercepted by the messenger and rally out of sight from the Haradrim. When enough of them arrived, they'd be able to launch a successful flanking attack. However, if the Haradrim had left defenders on Rammas Echor, such a tactic would likely fail, as the Haradrim would have forewarning of any gathering of men. If they managed to do a successful flanking before the Haradrim had taken the city, they'd probably win. If not? Well, they'd be slaughtered at the city's walls. And as to the Haradrim taking the city. Well, the Gondorians wouldn't have their full forces pulled into the city. They'd also have pretty much no cavalry for harrying. It really depends on any siege equipment the Haradrim have, and the true size of a Mumak. If the Mumak are the same size as, or slightly larger than, modern elephants, then they could be all but ignored in a siege such as this. If they were the size they've been portrayed as in the movies, then they'd be very deadly.

I think that you should advocate ‘Easterling Threat’ theory rather than a haradrim one, because that is more persuasive. Haradrim are just one of joint force of Morgul, but Easterlings attacked Gondor and Dale and Erebor at same time and fought in two fronts.

There are many of reasons that Haradrim isn't strong enough to fight Gondor alone, and it includes your words that describe Gondor: Umbar 'had fallen greatly in strength'. During the War of the Ring, Umbar had not fully recovered. Its navy wasn't really a opponent, and Mordor pulled them into the war. For mûmakil, why they should be a problem? They are the only advantage that Haradrim has, and 'at the siege of Gondor there had been great number of the great mûmakil but that they were all destroyed'. That was an army that Haradrim can muster under Sauron's will. Without Sauron and after the lost in WotR, there will only be less mûmakil on the field, but Gondor has solved more mûmakil before. Why would no rangers? The rangers of Ithilien assaulted the haradrim under the command of Denethor, and that's the action of the regular army of Gondor. Haradrim could only blame themselves for they didn't prepared for it. Seriously, Harad should develop iron gears and drop their brazen equipment, then we could talk about it as a opponent of Gondor. By the way, the system of early-warning system of Palantíri would be rebuild in Reunited Kingdom, so the king of Gondor may notice any movement of Haradrim even before they reached Ithilien or South Gondor by the Orthanc-stone.

Wait a minute, why would Haradrim will attack Gondor after WotR in first place?

“	it was also clear that the hatred of Gondor, and the alliance of its enemies in concerted action (for which they themselves had neither the will nor the wisdom) was due to the machinations of Sauron.	”
–Cirion And Eorl And The Friendship Of Condor And Rohan, Unfinished Tales

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I'm pretty sure it's explicitly stated that only one Palantír survived intact and as such was only used sparingly.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 09:49, September 29, 2016 (UTC)
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Many Haradrim were not prepared or could not prepare for large war as they were nomads and only metal they would get would be from trading
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Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:I'm pretty sure it's explicitly stated that only one Palantír survived intact and as such was only used sparingly.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 09:49, September 29, 2016 (UTC)
Well we do not known he fate of the Ithil stone and Círdan keeps the (blank) stone at Elostirion. The Anor stone could be used with intense will so that leaves the Orthanc stone.
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MrHobit1234 wrote:
Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:I'm pretty sure it's explicitly stated that only one Palantír survived intact and as such was only used sparingly.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 09:49, September 29, 2016 (UTC)
Well we do not known he fate of the Ithil stone and Círdan keeps the (blank) stone at Elostirion.
Elostirion 'held one of the palantír of Arnor which did not communicate with the rest but looked only westward across the Sundering Seas to Tol Eressëa. It was the last stone of Arnor until it was removed at the very end of the Third Age.' (Tolkien Gateway)
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In my opnion the top five list is as it follows below:
1- angband and valinor: both are devastatingly powerful, the former having Morgoth himself and others of his beasts such as ancalagon the black and his legion of balrogs. Now Valinor is acting as it counter, the Valar feared ancalagon's wrath, and evil's advance, themselves retreating, but yet they are no force to contemn.
2- Numenor was presumed to have a fleet capable of taking over valinor, defeating their army, but yet. I don't see them able to overcoming greater powers such as creatures of angband and the ainur themselves.
3- Mordor: Do I really have to say much? Well, only that I'm counting it as Mordor only, if we were to have it taken as Sauron's armies, it would most likely be on the second position, as most of the southern and eastern kingdoms are under him, just like orc crowns such as Gundabad/Moria/Goblins, Dol Guldur, angmar's remainescents, etc.. But Mordor alone could not defeat Numenor, as far as I believe, as even with overwhelming powerful 'units', they would not be numerous enough to take the kingdom down.
4- Durin's Folk & Gondolin: The first being much larger than people imagine, when in it's apogee, and the latter being less, as they were elves confined, hidding from an almost omnipotent power laying on the north, haunting and hunting them and foreshadowing their destruction.
5- Reunited Kingdom: Gondor itself was grand, with the unition of the old Numenor's fragments, bind into one. they possibly grew in power much more, having many land to cover, as evil and the elves were gone. This army's power isn't exactly shown, but we can estimate it.
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Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:One last comment. Man IS, but they wouldn't have reached that if they hadn't fallen extinct. The human race likely would never have existed if that were the case.

Wait a minute, why would Haradrim will attack Gondor after WotR in first place?

“	it was also clear that the hatred of Gondor, and the alliance of its enemies in concerted action (for which they themselves had neither the will nor the wisdom) was due to the machinations of Sauron.	”
–Cirion And Eorl And The Friendship Of Condor And Rohan, Unfinished Tales

The Haradrim attacking Gondor is to demonstrate how they aren't a clearly superior, overwhelming nation. And why would the Rangers of Ithilien be taking any ships? I was referring to the ships Aragorn and the Grey Company took and used to deliver the Spirits to the Pelennor.

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Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:One last comment. Man IS, but they wouldn't have reached that if they hadn't fallen extinct. The human race likely would never have existed if that were the case.

Wait a minute, why would Haradrim will attack Gondor after WotR in first place?

“	it was also clear that the hatred of Gondor, and the alliance of its enemies in concerted action (for which they themselves had neither the will nor the wisdom) was due to the machinations of Sauron.	”
–Cirion And Eorl And The Friendship Of Condor And Rohan, Unfinished Tales

Burn the Heretic! XD Well actually it transported 3,000 men of the southern fiefs.

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Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:One last comment. Man IS, but they wouldn't have reached that if they hadn't fallen extinct. The human race likely would never have existed if that were the case.

Wait a minute, why would Haradrim will attack Gondor after WotR in first place?

“	it was also clear that the hatred of Gondor, and the alliance of its enemies in concerted action (for which they themselves had neither the will nor the wisdom) was due to the machinations of Sauron.	”
–Cirion And Eorl And The Friendship Of Condor And Rohan, Unfinished Tales

Is Gondorians attacking Mordor to demonstrate how they aren't a clearly superior, overwhelming nation? Why ships would be a problem? Did the Spirits even attack any ships? No, 'Pale swords were drawn; but I know not whether their blades would still bite, for the Dead needed no longer any weapon but fear.. all the mariners were filled with a madness of terror and leaped overboard, save the slaves chained to the oars.' (The Last Debate, The Return Of The King) The Dead didn't fight, but Corsairs have no combat capability at all. Do you really rely on ships like that? Therefore, I said that 'Umbar 'had fallen greatly in strength'. During the War of the Ring, Umbar had not fully recovered.' Please don't forget that Gondor received the fleet of Umbar with literally no cost, and that is almost 40 ships, and there are the main force of the struggling Umbar. However, Gondor took them for free. You tell me how an unrecovered Umbar to raise another fleet to fight against Gondor?

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A lot of the numeorean blood in umbar was gone due to interbreeding with the Haradrim only really the rulers and sorcerors and other nobles
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Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:One last comment. Man IS, but they wouldn't have reached that if they hadn't fallen extinct. The human race likely would never have existed if that were the case.

Wait a minute, why would Haradrim will attack Gondor after WotR in first place?

“	it was also clear that the hatred of Gondor, and the alliance of its enemies in concerted action (for which they themselves had neither the will nor the wisdom) was due to the machinations of Sauron.	”
–Cirion And Eorl And The Friendship Of Condor And Rohan, Unfinished Tales

. This is a hypothetical scenario. And also, lego, the same can be said of the Gondorians. And additionally, wargaz, do you not remember when the spirits arrived in ships? You literally got a quote from the section where they took the ships. And say they attacked no ships. There may not have been actual combat involved, but it was an attack.

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Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:One last comment. Man IS, but they wouldn't have reached that if they hadn't fallen extinct. The human race likely would never have existed if that were the case.

Wait a minute, why would Haradrim will attack Gondor after WotR in first place?

“	it was also clear that the hatred of Gondor, and the alliance of its enemies in concerted action (for which they themselves had neither the will nor the wisdom) was due to the machinations of Sauron.	”
–Cirion And Eorl And The Friendship Of Condor And Rohan, Unfinished Tales

Not for the people of Dol Amroth: 'But beyond, in the great fief of Belfalas, dwelt Prince Imrahil in his castle of Dol Amroth by the sea, and he was of high blood, and his folk also, tall men and proud with sea-grey eyes.' (Minas Tirith, The Return Of The King)

If that is a attack, then Gondorians really should have no more fear on Umbar. After all, coastal populace could mystify and scar them, and that will be count as an attack! We don't even need Gondor regular army to deal with corsairs! By the way, I'd like to remind you, as MrHobit1234 told, that the spirits didn't appear on the Battle of Pelennor Fields. They scared corsairs like I quoted and Aragorn released them. The ships 'transported 3,000 men of the southern fiefs' to Pelennor Fields.

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Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:One last comment. Man IS, but they wouldn't have reached that if they hadn't fallen extinct. The human race likely would never have existed if that were the case.

Wait a minute, why would Haradrim will attack Gondor after WotR in first place?

“	it was also clear that the hatred of Gondor, and the alliance of its enemies in concerted action (for which they themselves had neither the will nor the wisdom) was due to the machinations of Sauron.	”
–Cirion And Eorl And The Friendship Of Condor And Rohan, Unfinished Tales

The Oathbreakers going to the Pelennor is only in the movies.

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Rayn Turammarth wrote:

Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:One last comment. Man IS, but they wouldn't have reached that if they hadn't fallen extinct. The human race likely would never have existed if that were the case.

Wait a minute, why would Haradrim will attack Gondor after WotR in first place?

“	it was also clear that the hatred of Gondor, and the alliance of its enemies in concerted action (for which they themselves had neither the will nor the wisdom) was due to the machinations of Sauron.	”
–Cirion And Eorl And The Friendship Of Condor And Rohan, Unfinished Tales

The Oathbreakers going to the Pelennor is only in the movies.

Funny. I've never seen the movies. Where did the Oathbreakers arrive on their ships then? Because, as shown by that quote, they did take the ships.

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Im pretty sure the Oathbreakers were in the Pelennor fields in the books..
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Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:One last comment. Man IS, but they wouldn't have reached that if they hadn't fallen extinct. The human race likely would never have existed if that were the case.

Wait a minute, why would Haradrim will attack Gondor after WotR in first place?

“	it was also clear that the hatred of Gondor, and the alliance of its enemies in concerted action (for which they themselves had neither the will nor the wisdom) was due to the machinations of Sauron.	”
–Cirion And Eorl And The Friendship Of Condor And Rohan, Unfinished Tales

Yeah. Because a random villager running from the scary pirates definitely has the potential to frighten as an army of long-dead ghosts who have been responsible for the death of any who enter their home for an entire Age. At my post above, I read the section again, and am remembering it wrong. Again, my point still stands. The port of Pelargir would not have been cleared of enemies, and those 3000 Southern levies would never have made it up. And as to Umbar. What again was it recovering from at the time? It's been a while since I've read any of the pre-histories.

EDIT: Looked into it a little more - on Tolkien Gateway - and they were able to send 50 'great ships' and smaller vessels 'beyond count.' So, yeah, that recovery has gone well. Many, many ships - albeit ones perhaps the size of sloops - cannot be ignored.

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Well, back when he went under the alias of Thorongil, Aragorn led an attack on Umbar. That's the only thing I can think of.
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Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:One last comment. Man IS, but they wouldn't have reached that if they hadn't fallen extinct. The human race likely would never have existed if that were the case.

Wait a minute, why would Haradrim will attack Gondor after WotR in first place?

“	it was also clear that the hatred of Gondor, and the alliance of its enemies in concerted action (for which they themselves had neither the will nor the wisdom) was due to the machinations of Sauron.	”
–Cirion And Eorl And The Friendship Of Condor And Rohan, Unfinished Tales

So you got the point: 'great ships' and smaller vessels 'beyond count' are taken by Gondor for free. How will Umbar recover again from the WotR and raise another fleet to attack Gondor? Gondor is the one that has 'great ships' and smaller vessels 'beyond count' now. Many, many ships - albeit ones perhaps the size of sloops - cannot be ignored.

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Iirc a good majority of that fleet was burned by Aragon before they set off. At any rate Umbar almost certainly sent more, and in the battle that destroyed/cleared Pelargir I doubt they had zero casualties. Even so, they never would've sent their full strength to one attack anyway.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 09:51, September 30, 2016 (UTC)
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Sauron does care about their lives so there is no doubt the majority was sent.
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Recneps wrote:

Rayn Turammarth wrote:

Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:One last comment. Man IS, but they wouldn't have reached that if they hadn't fallen extinct. The human race likely would never have existed if that were the case.

Wait a minute, why would Haradrim will attack Gondor after WotR in first place?

“	it was also clear that the hatred of Gondor, and the alliance of its enemies in concerted action (for which they themselves had neither the will nor the wisdom) was due to the machinations of Sauron.	”
–Cirion And Eorl And The Friendship Of Condor And Rohan, Unfinished Tales

The Oathbreakers going to the Pelennor is only in the movies.

Funny. I've never seen the movies. Where did the Oathbreakers arrive on their ships then? Because, as shown by that quote, they did take the ships.

They attacked Pelargir and Tarnost.

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Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:

Wargaz cc wrote:

Recneps wrote:One last comment. Man IS, but they wouldn't have reached that if they hadn't fallen extinct. The human race likely would never have existed if that were the case.

Wait a minute, why would Haradrim will attack Gondor after WotR in first place?

“	it was also clear that the hatred of Gondor, and the alliance of its enemies in concerted action (for which they themselves had neither the will nor the wisdom) was due to the machinations of Sauron.	”
–Cirion And Eorl And The Friendship Of Condor And Rohan, Unfinished Tales

.Sure, after the War of the Ring. But then we also destroy the Haradrim's army. My thing, if I was unclear, was staged before the actual War of the Ring. And why are you being so caustic?

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1) Dol Amroth
2) Dol Amroth
3) Dol Amroth
4) Dol Amroth
5) Dol Amroth
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1. The Klingon Empire
2. The Aldmeri Dominion
3. Wesnoth
4. House Stark
5. The Fire Nation
Some of the best kingdoms in Middle Earth, and undoubtedly the best factions in the mod.
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1. Yes Scotland
2. Yes Scotland
3. Yes Scotland
4. No Scotland
5. Yes Scotland
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Recneps wrote:
1. Yes Scotland
2. Yes Scotland
3. Yes Scotland
4. No Scotland
5. Yes Scotland
NO! NO POLITICAL DISCUSSION!
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Recneps wrote:
1. Yes Scotland
2. Yes Scotland
3. Yes Scotland
4. No Scotland
5. Yes Scotland
NO! NO POLITICAL DISCUSSION!
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Recneps wrote:
1. Yes Scotland
2. Yes Scotland
3. Yes Scotland
4. No Scotland
5. Yes Scotland
Totally agree. These kingdoms rose in great power on April 1.
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1. The Rakatan Infinite Empire
2. The Yuuzhan Vong
3. The Galactic Empire
4. The Confederacy of Independant Systems
5. The Galactic Republic
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 11:46, October 1, 2016 (UTC)
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ZomboDragonR3x wrote:
1)erebor
2)khazad dum3)tauredain4)dale5)arnor
Khazad-dum was fairly more powerful than the erebor, and dale at his high wasnt more powerful than arnor before its downfall sry dude :P
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The Tauredain is one thing we're forgetting, though. They're non-lore, and they're fairly weak now, but they once were a mighty empire. In my mind, anything rich and powerful enough to build as many of those huge pyramids - and gold ones - as they did is pretty amazing.
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Recneps wrote:
1. Yes Scotland
2. Yes Scotland
3. Yes Scotland
4. No Scotland
5. Yes Scotland
GG
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Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:
1. The Rakatan Infinite Empire
2. The Yuuzhan Vong
3. The Galactic Empire
4. The Confederacy of Independant Systems
5. The Galactic Republic
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 11:46, October 1, 2016 (UTC)
What is the Rakatan Infinite Empire? Is it some ancient sith empire?
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Loke Khan Torgou of Rhun wrote:
Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:
1. The Rakatan Infinite Empire
2. The Yuuzhan Vong
3. The Galactic Empire
4. The Confederacy of Independant Systems
5. The Galactic Republic
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 11:46, October 1, 2016 (UTC)
What is the Rakatan Infinite Empire? Is it some ancient sith empire?
It was a full-galactic empire run by the Rakatan species. They weren't Sith per se, but had Force sensitivity to a degree and used it to make tech such as hyperspace beacons and the Star Forge. They ruled most of the galaxy and had slaves of just about every species. They were eradicated when a plague that affected only them broke out and the slave species revolted.
The Star Forge, however, was later used by the Sith Empire.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 19:58, October 3, 2016 (UTC)
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And the Hyperspace beacons were used by just about everyone after the Correlians turned them into Hyperdrives ;)
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Eh, they sorta redesigned it. Hyperspace beacons where these thingies the Rakatans put in star systems that act as jump-points. The modern hyperdrive could jump to any point in space with the help of navicomputer route calculations.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 00:27, October 4, 2016 (UTC)
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Fargoniac wrote:1. Valinor
2. Utumno
3. Angband
4. Numenor
5. Mordor

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Fargoniac wrote:
1. Valinor
2. Utumno
3. Angband
4. Numenor
5. Mordor
VALINOR DOESN'T COUNT!!!!!
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Top 10 Most Powerful Forces of Fraggle Rock
1. Radishes
2. The Trash Heap
3. The Fraggle Five (fraggles in general)
4. The Doozers
5. Junior Gorg
6. The Minstrals
7. Doc and Sprocket
8. Philo and Gunge (the trash heaps rats)
9. Wander McMooch
10. Ned Shimellfinny
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Graycloud64 wrote:Top 10 Most Powerful Forces of Fraggle Rock
1. Radishes
2. The Trash Heap
3. The Fraggle Five (fraggles in general)
4. The Doozers
5. Junior Gorg
6. The Minstrals
7. Doc and Sprocket
8. Philo and Gunge (the trash heaps rats)
9. Wander McMooch
10. Ned Shimellfinny
That's a name I've not heard in a long time.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 09:44, October 4, 2016 (UTC)
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Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:
Graycloud64 wrote:Top 10 Most Powerful Forces of Fraggle Rock
1. Radishes
2. The Trash Heap
3. The Fraggle Five (fraggles in general)
4. The Doozers
5. Junior Gorg
6. The Minstrals
7. Doc and Sprocket
8. Philo and Gunge (the trash heaps rats)
9. Wander McMooch
10. Ned Shimellfinny
That's a name I've not heard in a long time.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 09:44, October 4, 2016 (UTC)
It brongs old memories back indeed.. that song.. Freggles FTW!
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1. Celestials2. Rakatan3. vu Zan von4. New republic (legends)5. Galactic empire
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I didn't include the Celestials because it's unknown exactly who or what they are.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 00:00, October 5, 2016 (UTC)
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1. Valinor
2. Utumno
3. Angband and Thangorodrim
4. Numenor (at it's height)
5. Khazad-Dum
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1. Valinor (Different Continet)
2. Mordor/Isengaard (at height)
3.Reunited Kingdom (Gondor/Arnor)
4. Lothlorien
5. Erebor
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Well if this is alive again, I'd say (previous to saurons final defeat that is)
1. Númenor (at its peak and if it's counted amongst middle-earth)
2. Angband
3. Gondor (at its peak)
4. Mordor (Second age after laying waste to eregion, basically owning all of middle-earth save rivendell, lóthlórien, lindon and the woodland realm)
5. Doriath (questionable or not, whilst everyone keeps shouting Gondolin, Doriath was much more stable and much much bigger, the only reason it was destroyed was due to the power vacuum that arose after Thingols death and Melians departure, without them, who had united them for thousands of years, Doriath couldn't throw together a single organized defense force to fend off the dwarves, leaving the capital destroyed and much of the population moving south to escape the wrath of Morgoth now the protection of Melian was gone.)
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Personally, I'd go with:
1. Angband (only a tiny bit ahead of Numenor imo)
2. Númenor (under Ar-Pharazon)
3. The Kingdom of the Noldor-in-Exile (under Fingolfin)
4. Mordor (after the War of the Elves in Sauron)
5. Gondor (under Hyarmendacil)
Ithilion, Discussions Moderator^{(Auta i lómë)}
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the 'kingdom of the noldor in exile' was never a single unified force though now was it.. Splintered between Fingolfin, Finrod and Maedhros
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To amend mine:
1. The Rakatan Infinite Empire (at its height, circa 30,000 BBY)
2. The Galactic Empire (At its height, circa 3 ABY)
3. The Yuuzhan Vong (At their height, shortly after taking Coruscant)
4. The Galactic Republic (At its apex in the 900s BBY, unless we're talking military strength purely, in which case it drops a spot and goes to 19 BBY)
5. The Sith Empire (during the Great Galactic War, under Vitiate)
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 16:03, February 25, 2018 (UTC)
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High King Ithilion wrote:Personally, I'd go with:
1. Angband (only a tiny bit ahead of Numenor imo)
2. Númenor (under Ar-Pharazon)
3. The Kingdom of the Noldor-in-Exile (under Fingolfin)
4. Mordor (after the War of the Elves in Sauron)
5. Gondor (under Hyarmendacil)
Ithilion, Discussions Moderator^{(Auta i lómë)}
I think Angbad at its height was a lot more than 'a tiny bit stronger' than Numenor tbf.
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Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:To amend mine:
1. The Rakatan Infinite Empire (at its height, circa 30,000 BBY)
2. The Galactic Empire (At its height, circa 3 ABY)
3. The Yuuzhan Vong (At their height, shortly after taking Coruscant)
4. The Galactic Republic (At its apex in the 900s BBY, unless we're talking military strength purely, in which case it drops a spot and goes to 19 BBY)
5. The Sith Empire (during the Great Galactic War, under Vitiate)
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 16:03, February 25, 2018 (UTC)
To ammend my list. :^)
1) Old Ones
2) Necron Empire at height
3) Aeldari Empire at height
4) DAOT era humanity
5) Great Crusade Era Imperium of Man
Hobit, Chief of the Inquisition^{(Inform me of heretics)}
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Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:
To amend mine:
1. The Rakatan Infinite Empire (at its height, circa 30,000 BBY)
2. The Galactic Empire (At its height, circa 3 ABY)
3. The Yuuzhan Vong (At their height, shortly after taking Coruscant)
4. The Galactic Republic (At its apex in the 900s BBY, unless we're talking military strength purely, in which case it drops a spot and goes to 19 BBY)
5. The Sith Empire (during the Great Galactic War, under Vitiate)
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 16:03, February 25, 2018 (UTC)
Didn't the infinite empire only control a small portion of the galaxy?
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Catfishperson wrote:
High King Ithilion wrote:Personally, I'd go with:
1. Angband (only a tiny bit ahead of Numenor imo)
2. Númenor (under Ar-Pharazon)
3. The Kingdom of the Noldor-in-Exile (under Fingolfin)
4. Mordor (after the War of the Elves in Sauron)
5. Gondor (under Hyarmendacil)
Ithilion, Discussions Moderator^{(Auta i lómë)}
I think Angbad at its height was a lot more than 'a tiny bit stronger' than Numenor tbf.
I mean, Numenor conquered half the globe. Morgoth might have stronger assets, but imperial Numenor was a terrifying force.
Ithilion, Discussions Moderator^{(Auta i lómë)}
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Loke Khan Torgou of Rhun wrote:
Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:
To amend mine:
1. The Rakatan Infinite Empire (at its height, circa 30,000 BBY)
2. The Galactic Empire (At its height, circa 3 ABY)
3. The Yuuzhan Vong (At their height, shortly after taking Coruscant)
4. The Galactic Republic (At its apex in the 900s BBY, unless we're talking military strength purely, in which case it drops a spot and goes to 19 BBY)
5. The Sith Empire (during the Great Galactic War, under Vitiate)
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 16:03, February 25, 2018 (UTC)
Didn't the infinite empire only control a small portion of the galaxy?
On the contrary. They controlled the entire galaxy. They manifested this through a scattering of worlds, true, but there were no other non-primitive worlds in existence.
Gen. Grievous1138(LOTR Mod Wiki Admin)^comlink 20:22, February 25, 2018 (UTC)
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I'm a bit lost as to what galaxy I'm in at the moment. LOLZ!
Edhelgwath,Shade-Elf
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The most Powerful Kingdoms in Middle-Earth
1. Angband
2. Numenor
3. Fingolfin's Alliance (I know no better name for this, but it was powerful enough to hold Angband closed for a time)
4. Mordor
5. Doriath (A very powerful nation until Melian left and Thingol perished)
Edhelgwath,Shade-Elf
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This thread is back again? Great necromancy is at work here.
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1 Erebor2 kazad dum3 gondolin4 angmar5 dol guldur 6 arnor7 Rivendel8 mirkwood9 gondor10 mordor 11 rohan12 harad
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2A02:1388:2192:9D8D:C1A6:3D04:43A3:3B05 wrote:
1 Erebor
2 kazad dum3 gondolin4 angmar5 dol guldur 6 arnor7 Rivendel8 mirkwood9 gondor10 mordor 11 rohan12 harad
I'm pretty sure Khazad Dum was stronger than Erebor

Also Angband beats all of those.
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Dinopizzagamer wrote:This thread is back again? Great necromancy is at work here.
Indeed. 2 year old thread!
1. Valinor2. Angband/Utumno at its height3. Siege of Angband alliance4. Mordor at its Height5. Numenor at its Height
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This thread is 2 1/2 years old and still being necroposted on.
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High King Ithilion wrote:
Personally, I'd go with:
1. Angband (only a tiny bit ahead of Numenor imo)
2. Númenor (under Ar-Pharazon)
3. The Kingdom of the Noldor-in-Exile (under Fingolfin)
4. Mordor (after the War of the Elves in Sauron)
5. Gondor (under Hyarmendacil)
Ithilion, Discussions Moderator^{(Auta i lómë)}
Defintitly.
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Jthemarvelfan wrote:
High King Ithilion wrote:
Personally, I'd go with:
1. Angband (only a tiny bit ahead of Numenor imo)
2. Númenor (under Ar-Pharazon)
3. The Kingdom of the Noldor-in-Exile (under Fingolfin)
4. Mordor (after the War of the Elves in Sauron)
5. Gondor (under Hyarmendacil)
Ithilion, Discussions Moderator^{(Auta i lómë)}
Defintitly.
Angbad would have tanked Numenor.
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Valinor (obviously.. FRICKING MOUNT OLYMPUS, the FWIKING GODS live there)
Numenor (the king decided to come to Middle-earth, show Sauron the middle-finger, and take him prisoner. Nailed it)
Lothlorien (pretty sure at it's height, even Mordor wouldn't be able to yeet it.)
Khazad-dum (greatest dwarven faction ever made)
HARAD. NOTHING CAN BEAT HARAD. NOTHING. *change my mind*
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1. Druedain
2. Dunland
3. Rhudaur
4. Bogpit, the Mordor Orc Archer
5. no other kingdoms exist
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Recneps wrote:
U S A!
U S A!
U S A!
U S A!
U S A!
U S A!
U S A!
launches into a moving piano solo of the American Anthem
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@Me *looks at Arcen banging away at the piano*
/me lotr.music/play_file-4//communism-theme-park
IronJaw starts playing the Soviet Anthem standing side by side with ComradeVadimir
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1. Kebab kingdom
2. Kebab kingdom
3. Kebab kingdom
4. Kebab kingdom
5. Kebab kingdom
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Oh damn, you're right! That one is too good not to include! :D
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